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Tom Ehrlich ():

This is part of being a citizen in a democracy, which is not a spectator sport. You have to be involved and engaged.

Denise Pope ():

Welcome to School’s In, your go-to podcast for cutting-edge insights in learning. From early education to lifelong development, we dive into trends, innovations, and challenges facing learners of all ages. I’m Denise Pope, senior lecturer at ������������’s Graduate School of Education and co-founder of Challenge Success.

Dan Schwartz ():

And I’m Dan Schwartz. I’m the Dean of the Graduate School of Education and the faculty director of the ������������ Accelerator for Learning.

Denise Pope ():

Together, we bring you expert perspectives and conversations to help you stay curious, inspired, and informed. Hi, Dan.

Dan Schwartz ():

Hi, Denise. I have a question for you.

Denise Pope ():

You do?

Dan Schwartz ():

I do.

Denise Pope ():

Okay.

Dan Schwartz ():

So I get confused about what counts as public service. So I try to solve this problem by looking at different types of activities and professions, and I think I concluded that my barber does public service.

Denise Pope ():

Really?

Dan Schwartz ():

Well, yeah. I mean, he cuts my hair, which makes me look better to everybody else. Is that like a public service?

Denise Pope ():

So it serves the public, you look better, and so you’re making the public happier because we don’t have to look at your hairy face? or hair?

Dan Schwartz ():

Something like that. But I vote, that seems like civic participation but not public service. So what do you think of when you think of public service?

Denise Pope ():

I think of anybody really serving the public, teachers and people who work in the government and nonprofits and NGOs, and I think there’s a lot of people who do public service.

Dan Schwartz ():

Interesting. So you sort of define it by the sector. Well, we’re lucky because we have the man who knows public service. Our guest today is Tom Ehrlich. So Tom was dean of the law school at ������������. He was the provost at University of Pennsylvania. He was the president of Indiana University, and now he is an adjunct professor within the School of Education, so we are very lucky. Along with all those, which you may or may not consider public service, he also served six U.S. presidents, and so I think that’s pretty important. And then another service that he does is he writes books. He writes books faster than most people read, and he has a new one that just came out that I’m going to ask about, Learn, Lead, and Serve: A Civic Life. But Tom, welcome and tell us what counts as public service.

Denise Pope ():

Oh my God. And can we just say we’re bowing down because what a life.

Dan Schwartz ():

It’s amazing.

Denise Pope ():

What a career, what a life. It’s amazing. It’s amazing.

Tom Ehrlich ():

I’ll bottle all that for dark days and look at it when it comes. To me, it obviously depends on why you’re asking the question. What it is that you want to call service. Public service or non-service depends on the circumstances. That said, from my perspective, at the core is service in local, state, national, international government. Around that are a series of nonprofits, as Denise was suggesting, that directly relate to public policy and shaping public policy and helping the public as kind of a next round. Teachers are vital to the country. They’re vital to our democracy. And I do call that public service, particularly if it’s in public institutions where they have a special obligation, as I did at Indiana University, to help promote the well-being of the citizenry of the state. Other times you may want a larger or narrow difference because as Dan said, even his barber has some public service for trying to make him look a little better than he otherwise might.

Denise Pope ():

Wait. Okay. Wait, Tom. Are you really counting that as a yes or are you being facetious?

Tom Ehrlich ():

No, I’m not counting it, but since Dan was and he’s my dean, I thought I better at least give a bow in that direction.

Denise Pope ():

Oh, this is a kiss up. This is a kiss up.

Tom Ehrlich ():

I do that all the time. Of course.

Denise Pope ():

This is how he had such a long, illustrious career, is he’s very good at kissing up to the people who supervise him.

Dan Schwartz ():

Well, so that’s actually a relevant segue. So besides kissing up, what sorts of things make a good public servant? You’ve been around a lot. There’s probably some public servants who aren’t great and some who are. Are there qualities that you can identify?

Tom Ehrlich ():

Sure. Again, it depends on the job, but for most it is really caring about the people they’re serving. Public servant means you’re serving and trying to really say what is it that the public I am serving needs. Listening hard and trying to be sure you’re responding to what you hear in ways that can be positively helpful, and then having the grit to stay with it. I think in leadership positions, at any one time, in my experience at least, you can only really focus on two or three big things that you want to get done and drive to get those done, but in other ways, you can do a lot of little things. These days I’m basically trying to help individuals a little bit, make their lives a little bit better, different than trying to help shape a whole institution. But all of those are important. And unfortunately today I am afraid too often, students particularly, kind of shy away from doing what I’ve called public service.

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They see politics as a mess and they don’t want to get engaged in it, and even nonprofits. They’re more interested here at ������������ in consulting and finance. Not that those aren’t important, but I wish we had more of our students and more students across the country who can say, “I want to help make this democracy stronger and better for those least able to help themselves.”

Dan Schwartz ():

So it’s interesting. We were just having a conversation at the top levels of the university about political service, and the observation was there’s actually quite a few students who want to do that, but there’s no sort of organized structure for them to find a way in. So, for example, companies come and advertise internships, the federal government doesn’t come and advertise pathways into federal service. Does that resonate, Tom, as a possibility?

Tom Ehrlich ():

Somewhat, yes. And the government is often more bureaucratic in terms of getting there. I do think the most important way for students in higher education to get engaged is actually not just to learn about government and to learn how it works, but also to engage in it. And that’s one reason I have been strongly encouraging a summer or quarter of public service, defined, as the Haas Center here at ������������ does, for all undergraduates in some form. Some can’t because they’re athletes or some other, but I would like to see that happen and the university help publicize them because you’re quite right. If you’re going to work for McKinsey, chances are they’ll be here and take you to lunch and dinner. The government doesn’t do that, but we can use more. But those internships in the government, all the way from local, state, national, international, are there, and I think they don’t reach out the way the corporations do, but I agree, the university can help them. But they need – students need – to have experience in order to make them care.

Dan Schwartz ():

I may challenge that question in a second. But before I do, does that idea get pushed back, that, “I’ve paid for my kid to go to school and now you’re saying he has to go do something for somebody else? That’s not what I paid for.” Or people say, “That’s a great idea, we just don’t have the time to do it.”?

Tom Ehrlich ():

Some of both.

Dan Schwartz ():

What is the reaction to that? Some of both?

Tom Ehrlich ():

It’s mixed. Some say, “Why, I just want my child to have a job and get better,” But a good many, fortunately, say, particularly those who have been in public service in the armed forces or otherwise, “This is part of living a good life. This is part of being a citizen in a democracy, which is not a spectator sport. You have to be involved and engaged.” And the only way really to understand that is to have some experience in doing that. When I was growing up some 90 years ago, students took civics in the fifth grade and they went to school boards, they listened, they wrote letters to their congresspeople. Unfortunately, after the second World War, I think the advent of political science as a science said you really shouldn’t be involved at all, you should be disengaged and just analyze it as abstraction. Well, that may be all right if you’re going to become a professional political scientist, but it’s not good if you want to be a professional citizen.

Dan Schwartz ():

So all you political scientists out there, I know it’s a large proportion of our listenership, Tom has deep respect for political science. He just doesn’t think it’s the pathway to be involved in politics.

Denise Pope ():

Well, there’s lots of ways that you can be of service. So, I think, let’s tease this out a little bit, Tom, because I think there’s the idea that you can go and do an internship and, you know,  go to DC or go and do a local internship in your own community. But then there’s also what Dan said about voting, about making yourself heard, about rallying for causes that you believe in, right? So, I do think people will push back and say, “It takes time. I don’t have the time or the money.” It may be, as you say, that they don’t know about it. So I do think bringing them in and helping them to know, “Hey, these are out there.” But I also know it is a reality that a lot of people can’t do a free internship and a lot of nonprofits or government agencies don’t pay for that. So, is there a happy medium somewhere?

Tom Ehrlich ():

We’re fortunate at ������������ where every person, every undergraduate who wants to do a summer of service gets a stipend. It’s not a fortune, but it’s enough to live on. And my hope is, in the current capital campaign that’s going on, we’ll be able to do that for at least all students who want to. But I’d like to go further and say all students, unless they have a real excuse, they can’t do it. We have programs now at ������������, ������������ and government particularly, where students actually engage in what’s going on in government at the time. This is for government in Washington at the national level, but we have internships in the local and state level too where students really participate, actively. And they also, in their classes that are involved, too, or programs, they’re learning. And so the academic learning strengthens the service learning, and the service learning strengthens the academic learning.

Denise Pope ():

I mean, those programs are amazing. I know. I did not know that you could get a stipend, and that’s a great thing to tell our listeners and they can pass that word on because that’s, uh, that’s amazing.

Dan Schwartz ():

So John F. Kennedy had a very famous line. He said, “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.” And so the image is that you participate in the institutions of the country and you serve. I think this may have changed. I think for a lot of students, public service is trying to change the institutions rather than working through them. And so they, they think they’re, and maybe they’re correct, that they’re participating in society by actively protesting what society is or advocating for different structures, and I think that’s viewed as or felt as participation. What do you think?

Denise Pope ():

I don’t know. It’s kind of an interesting thing. I agree and I’m glad that we are seeing sort of a revitalization of youth activism, right? You see it with the climate change, but I am not sure I agree with the change because when he’s saying ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country, I think activism is part of that, I mean, right? I think there’s a whole bunch of ways that you can serve or do for your country, from voting, from being a good neighbor, from, you know, taking a job in the public sector and from making your voice heard when you think that your country or your community is doing something wrong. So, I see them all as ways of doing for your country. Yeah. What do you think?

Dan Schwartz ():

I agree. I think people look at students protesting or advocating, talking about unfairness, as a lack of participation.

Denise Pope ():

Well, I think they’re annoyed by it. Oftentimes they’re just annoyed by it, right? They’re like...

Dan Schwartz ():

Could be.

Denise Pope ():

Those kids and cancel culture.

Dan Schwartz ():

Right. That stupid music they listen to.

Denise Pope ():

We say black and they say white or whatever, right? That’s just normal, you know, old people griping. But no, I think we are in a time of real revitalization of youth activism, and that gives me hope, because what we’re seeing in D.C. does not necessarily give me hope, but what we’re seeing in communities who are rallying and kids who are saying, “You know what? We’re inheriting this earth so we’re going to really make sure that climate change is front and center,” Or, “We understand the importance of respecting everybody’s identities.” Right? And so I appreciate that. The children are the future, Dan.

Dan Schwartz ():

So Tom, this was a little bit of my pushback on how you get people engaged in public service, and it actually comes from your book. I enjoyed Learn, Lead, Serve: A Civic Life. I have to say, Tom, you’re developing a style that I like. You’re very good at sort of describing the setting and the scene and the decision-making. It’s very good.

Tom Ehrlich ():

Thank you.

Dan Schwartz ():

But here’s the thing...

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No, it is.

Denise Pope ():

That was Dan kissing up to you, Tom.

Dan Schwartz ():

No, that’s not kissing up. That’s Dan channeling the truth. But the thing that really struck out, not struck out in a bad way, but the thing that really

Denise Pope ():

stood out?

Dan Schwartz ():

-stood out, that’s what I’m looking for, was, I was impressed by the incredible importance of role models and your engagement in public service. And so I was wondering, is this kind of a key to really effective public service experiences that you learn from, is to kind of find the right people to help you, to show you what it looks like, to make it something you aspire to?

Tom Ehrlich ():

Dan, I think that’s the key to life.

Dan Schwartz ():

Oh, wow.

Tom Ehrlich ():

To a life well lived.

Dan Schwartz ():

Drop the mic.

Denise Pope ():

Yeah, this is huge. Okay, Tom, you’re telling us the key to life. We’re listening.

Tom Ehrlich ():

Right, is to have role models. Not that you’re going to replicate them, but they set a standard of what you could do and you may not reach it, but you’re going to try a little harder and you’re going to learn a little more. And I’ve been blessed in my own life, starting with my father and a great judge, uh, Learned Hand, whom I worked for and others in the government who were extraordinary role models and they made me a little better, sometimes a lot better, than I’d might otherwise been. And over and over again, I encourage students to find others whom they admire and would like to work, not only with, but gain some of their knowledge, strengths, and abilities, and then try to do that. Most of us, certainly at my age, like to be asked for advice, but many students are shy about reaching out and asking, “Could you help me with this? I’m wrestling with this issue.” And that makes the difference.

Denise Pope ():

I think – first of all, that’s amazing advice, and you are a role model for so many people – and I also think that there is this sense of Tom has worked for all these presidents and he ran a university and he was a dean. I mean, who am I to go up and say, “Hey, excuse me. Could you help me with my little bitty problem?” I do think people look at people like you, and even you Dan (and now I’m kissing up), but it’s like you guys are busy and you have big roles and it’s hard and scary for someone who’s a student or someone who doesn’t know how to approach that to even think about it. Like, what would be the language, Tom, that you would advise a student to take who wants to get in touch with you and ask for your advice?

Tom Ehrlich ():

No one runs the university, so if I may correct you on that. But to the extent, a leader is there, being a walking around leader, being one who meets with students, being one who says to students, “I’m really open and interested not only in what you’re doing but what questions you have about your own life and how you can live it in a way, how you want to relate to the world around you, and so please come to me.” You can’t, as a university president or a dean, you can’t do that for all students one at a time. But if you say that and say that’s what our faculties are there for – everyone who works at the School of Education or at ������������ is a teacher. Whether they’re in the classroom or not, they’re teaching, they’re teaching at least by example, and, uh, making it clear that you’re there to help them. And to me, and I know to Dan and you, it’s a great satisfaction.

Denise Pope ():

No, I like how you flip that, that it’s the adults. The adults need to be more out there and open and show that they really mean it and are receptive, and then I think it will make the students feel more comfortable. But I do think as a message to students and listeners, it can’t hurt to ask, right?

Tom Ehrlich ():

Right.

Denise Pope ():

No matter how famous or big or whatever the person is, right? It can’t hurt to ask.

Tom Ehrlich ():

So many times I have heard from students who maybe were students 10 or 15 or 20 years ago, “You probably don’t remember this, but I asked you this and you gave me this piece of advice and it has changed my life.” Well, a little hyperbole there, no doubt, but still, it obviously really made a difference and they remembered it. It’s another reason I ask students over and over again, please thank your teachers. Because too often these things happen, but the teachers never know about it. So it’s good to say thank you to those who made it happen.

Denise Pope ():

I don’t want to bring us down in any way, but I do wish that there were more role model types that we were seeing in Washington, D.C. I do think the reason why people are really hesitant to get into politics is you see this broken system and you see the people who are winning – 

Tom Ehrlich ():

Yeah, but how’s it going to get fixed? The way it’s going to get fixed is for people like our students getting in and getting involved and being those role models. Unfortunately, given the media these days, the bad apples get the most publicity. I understand that, because, in my experience at least, there are hundreds and thousands and thousands of public servants who don’t get publicity, don’t get anything other than the satisfaction of knowing they are doing something to make our democracy work better. But that said, having our students, and broadly, that’s why I help start two national organizations that are really aimed at helping students get the knowledge, the skills, the attributes to be engaged in public service in some way.

Dan Schwartz ():

Tell us about one of those organizations. I didn’t know this.

Tom Ehrlich ():

Well, one is called Campus Compact, which was started in the mid-1980s, and I was chair of its board for a while, and it was an organization of presidents. Much of the role of a president is not the most exciting thing. It’s budgets and cutting back on this or building on this.

Denise Pope ():

These are university presidents.

Tom Ehrlich ():

These are university presidents. Sorry. Yes.

Denise Pope ():

University presidents.

Tom Ehrlich ():

So the chance to take the high road and say what we’re really trying to do, some of the time at least, is help our students do what I’ve been talking about, which is make the world a little better. And Campus Compact grew to some state compacts, 36 of them, including here in California, and a large national group, and it’s still going strong. The other is called the American Democracy Project, which has some 300 – the Campus Compact has well over a thousand campuses with their presidents – American Democracy Project has some 300-plus broad-access public institutions like the Cal State system, where students are really focused on the abilities to become engaged in public policy or politics as students and for the rest of their lives. It doesn’t work for all students and it doesn’t certainly happen as evenly as all, but those are two of the organizations. And there’re others. I just haven’t been involved with all of them.

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I have some for K–12 schools, too, that I’ve been engaged with that, that help bridge the gap between just watching what seems like a mess going on in Washington and the reality of knowing you can participate and make it better.

Denise Pope ():

That’s like the epitome of Tom. This is how I would describe Tom. You see a problem and you say, “You know what? We could fix this. Let’s get a bunch of people together and talk about it and figure out what they can do. And since you were a university president, Campus Compact, let’s get a bunch of university presidents together and talk about this.” And I know that the Haas Center came out of some of that Campus Compact work, and service centers all over the United States came out of some of that Campus Compact work. Really cool.

Dan Schwartz ():

Nah, it’s phenomenal.

Denise Pope ():

Okay. I have a quick last question for you, Tom, because I know we’re running out of time. And we have you here, so can’t not ask this. As you look back at, sort of, all the stuff you did, right? One piece of advice that you learned or one nugget, what’s one nugget that you want everyone to know? I’ve had this full life, here’s a nugget, everybody.

Dan Schwartz ():

Denise, he just wrote a book with all the nuggets.

Denise Pope ():

I know, but I’m distilling it. I don’t have my copy yet. Is there a distillation?

Tom Ehrlich ():

Can I give a nugget that’s outside of the realm we’ve been talking about?

Denise Pope ():

Of course.

Tom Ehrlich ():

Good. Well, before Ellen, my wife, and I got married 67 years ago, my father-in-law pulled me aside and said, “Tom, if you each go two-thirds of the way, maybe you’ll make it.” And I found that advice, not just in marriage or in other relations, but in many things. If you could try to go two-thirds of the way –

Dan Schwartz ():

So I think I’ve got this. You’re facing each other and you’re each going two-thirds, so you’re going to overlap. That’s the imagery.

Tom Ehrlich ():

That’s right.

Dan Schwartz ():

Yeah.

Denise Pope ():

I love it. I love it. I love that image and I love that advice, and it applies to much more than marriages, but also what an amazing, amazing thing that you’ve done personally, socially, and so much good for the world. So Tom, thank you so much. I’m so excited to read the book. And I definitely want a signed copy. I’m just putting that out there.

Tom Ehrlich ():

Yeah, I’ll do that too. Good! Well, thank you so much for letting me be with you. It was my great pleasure.

Denise Pope ():

And Dan, as you think back to this conversation, what are some of the things that you’re going to really remember?

Dan Schwartz ():

Ahhh. You know, I always take a learning angle, and, um, I think the social model, you know, where you see other people do it, it’s important for you to get in the game. But, you know, he kept emphasizing the importance of the experience, and I think you need that experience of, like, how satisfying it is to actually help someone else. And that’s what keeps you in the game and makes it so that you want to do that more. And so I thought that was really interesting that you –

Denise Pope ():

You have to really feel it.

Dan Schwartz ():

Yep. Yep.

Denise Pope ():

Yeah, so true. Tom, thank you so much. Thank you to all of our listeners for joining on this episode of School’s In. Be sure to subscribe to the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you tune in. I’m Denise Pope.

Dan Schwartz ():

And I am Dan Schwartz. And thank you for joining us.